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 Post subject: ATK out of Business?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:09 pm 
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What is the likeliness of ATK going bankrupt like cannondale did. I'm worried that it will be the same scene all over again.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:44 am 
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ATK has been around a long time. I do not for see them going out of business. But only the future will tell what really happens in regards to their Cannondale connection.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:50 pm 
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TheJaspMan wrote:
ATK has been around a long time. I do not for see them going out of business. But only the future will tell what really happens in regards to their Cannondale connection.

Exactly. ATK's been in business a LONG time. They don't mass produce like C'Dale tried so they save a LOT there. Not to mention that they're building quads for next to nothing really. All they have to do basically is assemble them and build up the engine. When they bought all the parts from NREL they paid less money than total number of parts they received so w/every purchase, they're making money. (As where C'Dale didn't.)

Another place C'Dale failed w/racing. They spent so much to get into racing that it literally burned it all down. If a racer needed a part in a hurry it was free of charge usually and they had the best sponsorship program of any company to date. (Yes, better than Hon/Yam even, by far.) ATK has a contingency program but it's not going to hurt them. It will actually help bring in new customers and more orders.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:33 pm 
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Very well said. Cannondale had many many engines fail and had to eat those costs under warranty. ATK has fixed most of the problems. I have a good feeling, if and that's a big if, ATK went under who would get those parts..


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:37 pm 
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C-dale was spending tons on R&D for junk like carbonfiber axels and other junk that was a waste. ATK took some time spent a few bucks to improve what really needed improvment then let it be. C-dale was wasting money ATK is making a good solid quad. C-dale wanted to make as many quad as Honda over night and so they grew like a mushroom, all top no foundation. ATK has been around a long time has built a great foundation and is not worried about selling everyone in the world a quad, they just want to sell what they can build with quality. Remember they made it through some pretty lean times in the industry so don't look for them to go away any time soon.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:21 pm 
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daimon1054 wrote:
C-dale was spending tons on R&D for junk like carbonfiber axels and other junk that was a waste. ATK took some time spent a few bucks to improve what really needed improvment then let it be. C-dale was wasting money ATK is making a good solid quad. C-dale wanted to make as many quad as Honda over night and so they grew like a mushroom, all top no foundation. ATK has been around a long time has built a great foundation and is not worried about selling everyone in the world a quad, they just want to sell what they can build with quality. Remember they made it through some pretty lean times in the industry so don't look for them to go away any time soon.


There are many opinions out there on why Cannondale went under, and they are just that "Opinions". I own two Dales I bought one of the first Moto's and before I dropped 11g I did allot of talking to reps and tech people at Cannondale. One thing they told me over and over was they were NOT tring to compete aginst Hon or Yam. They were looking to build top end bikes and quads just like they do with their bicycles. As for the R&D, two years after the bankrupcy, nobody has even come close to their frame. Both of my engines have been flawless, I know some had problems and I am saving my opinion for the end. I would love to try out that carbon fiber axle, I have done a few thing with carbon fiber and am amazed to say the least, also have talked with people who work with it and from what they say on its capabilities is also impressive. That axle and swingarm and hubs would be about the same weight as a normal swingarm. I am all for R&D instead of detuning the engine and no warranty on a quad that a decent "B" rider would destroy the frame on, even with the stock motor.

As for my opinion. I say their first mistake (Bike) was the most costly, hind sight is always 20 20. But if they would have went after the quad market first they may have made it. ATK is building a good solid quad, but I feel they just corrected what the bean counters screwed up (crank). In order I would say they went to far in debt with the bike, tried to make the quad right and took to long, then in financal trouble went public, this is were the bean counters come in. For some reason they switched crank manufactures (bean counters? cheaper cranks?) and with bean counters its hard to buy anything for shop supplies (Loctite?), and from what I understand there wasn't much testing on the new crank.

As I stated those are my Opinions and one other thing I think is they built what the American ATVer said what they wanted, but they forgot to ask if they would buy it, or more precisely they should of asked them if they would buy it if it didn't have Honda (or Yamaha) on it. And don't go saying the price wa to high. Most of the people around here that were saying that were buying aftermarket chassies or EXs and stuffing CRF engines in them and going way over what I spent.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:50 am 
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I agree and have always said it was much cheaper to buy a Dale and go race than any other quad. But C-Dale's fall is pretty well doccumented, they wanted to grow faster than the could. The reason for the crank swap was the first supplyer could not keep up. The first R&D money went to the frame and motor and such and they had a good base product but do you remember the first year problems? Rather then work them out first they rushed to market and then spent million on warrenty problems. Then in the midst of this instead of spending their money on upgrading the problems they had they spent millions on carbonfiber axel and other usless dodads. I also agree that the bikes were a hugh drain and a mistake. Honda, Yamaha and all are to far advanced to go head to head with them. The quads were on top when they came out and still are. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:13 pm 
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Well like I said I have one of the first Motos (from the first shipment) and it has been the most reliable quad I own. I later purchased a early 02 Speed and it too has been perfect. There aren't many Dales around here but with the internet I have read of alot of people that have the early 02 without any problems. So I would disagree with the statment you made that they didn't work the 01 problems out. I am not sure when they went public but from what I have read it was early 02. Even if you say the crank company couldn't keep up, from what I understand Cannondale machined all the engine cases themselves and in no way had enough equimpment to come close to the number of 400EXs made or the facility to assemble or store them. Besides they didn't have the need to build more units per day. I don't believe they ever sold more than they could build. and not even a dumb bussnessman would try to build more per day if he already had a big inventory (its been 2 years and you can still find 02 and 03s in crates, even after ATK bought up a lot of them from old C-Dale dealers). My guess is between the bean counters and the over stock is why they started shipping overseas.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:34 am 
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I think there ambitions were higher than their market that is why the overstock. Heck ATK bought all the parts they had extra and will be building quads for the next several years without having to make new parts other than the few changes they made, you think they did not want to grow to fast? Remember ATK bought parts, frames and such Denli bought the tooling and intelectual properties.
If you remember the first runs, they replaced all the front ball joints then replaced a ton of starters they had quality problems with the a-arms heck I know more than one person that got a whole new fram free when they crashed it. C-Dale just spent way to much on warranty early on.

Now I do applaud them for standing behind thier work but I also think it was a littld dumb to update older quad free of charge! And they did a bunch around here. I think by the time the bean counters stepped in it was to late! They made a very good quad they just were not very good businessmen.

I am glad ATK stepped in and is still offering good products.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:45 pm 
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daimon1054 wrote:
I am glad ATK stepped in and is still offering good products.


Well at least we agree on one thing.

What I mean by bean counters is stock holders. when they went public (I assume it was not what they wanted to do) they lost control. After all Cannondale was not a young company ( I believe over 30 years old). I also believe a lot of desisions were made by the stock holders in the last year. I also don't believe Pegasus (sp) wanted them to make it.

think about it, you said they spent millions on R&D, so even if the original crank manufacture couldn't keep up why would they eliminate them all together and throw a un tested crank in these motors. Nothing that went on with Cannondale the last year even resembled what the company had been doing for years. From what I have read, the bikes put a hurt on thier pocket book. but R&D should never be called a bad thing but them dollars and years they spent on the bike may have been what did them in. I know they had thier problems fixed (I have 2 exsamples in my garage) in early 02. Jeff Stoess (PRO GNCC) rider put almost 1000 hours on his before he sold it and the engine was untouched, I would bet it was an early 02.


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